The Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Luis Moreno-Ocampo, announced that the Arab League Committee will submit a report to the court in a few weeks. For the time being, he is awaiting a report from the Palestinian Government, as well as additional information, before he makes a decision, in the course of the investigation regarding Israel and Gaza. A group of lawyers from South Africa discovered new realities that provided Ocampo with new jurisdictions in the case, he said. He added that "one of the legal advisers of the Israeli Arm Forces is in fact South African, and this provided a different jurisdiction to the court". In his interview with Al-Hayat, the Prosecutor said that the lawsuit filed against the Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir is ongoing, and it aims at confirming the genocide charges. He also seemed convinced that the Sudanese President, whom he called "the fugitive president", will "face justice". "I think I will win these charges. In the meantime what I see is state parties are fully supporting [me]", he noted. The full text of the interview follows: - Let me start out with the Gaza situation, where you have been waiting for an input from the Arab League and at the last time when you spoke with the Arab League there was some readiness as it seems to me for working together almost in exchange of taking it easy on Darfur. Am I reading this wrongly? How did this happen? - - No, no. After the Palestinian Authorities came to my office for jurisdiction, the Arab League decided to open a committee presided by very well known and respected professor from South Africa, John Dougart, and they put a report, and they are coming in a couple of weeks to the court to present the details of the report. The Committee will come to the office to bring details of the written report that we had. In addition to that, we seek communication among other parties including a group of South African lawyers and they came with a different issue. They found that one of the legal advisers of the Israeli Arm Forces is in fact South African, and this provided a different jurisdiction to the court. The court had jurisdiction on crime Committee by nationals from the state parties. - And that is going to allow you do what? - - South African lawyers came to see me saying, “This is a different prosecutor because this is not just Palestinian Authority that set jurisdiction.” In addition to that I have jurisdiction, and that is true when national party commit a crime and that is the case in Balkans. So they presented to me a different approach on the Gaza issue, not just basic jurisdiction, the possibility of jurisdiction on the Palestinian Authority decisions. - So now you have two ways of coming into the Gaza situation, how are you taking it up? What are your next steps? - - I am still listening. My only promise is to be impartial and respect the law. So I have to be sure. Basically the Palestinians offer to present their report on their position so before we make any decision we have to make sure that we collected all the information we need to be sure we have a solid decision. - And how long would that take? - - As much as needed. - When you are going to start? - - I started. - Can you share the procedures? - - The procedure is that I receive information, I request information, and then when I am sure, I decide. - So have you requested information from the Israeli Authorities and have they been responsive? - - We offered Israel if they like to give us information and they sent to us some information. - So can we actually say that you started the investigation? - - No. All this process is to decide if I have to open investigation or not. If I open investigation, I have to convince the judges who have to authorize me but this is a decision I have to take after all those documents and all those information are collected. - As to the parallel approach and jurisdiction, the South African approach. Had this sort of pushed forward? - - This is different because the big issue with Palestinian Authorities first is do I have jurisdiction? In South African case if this Southern African legal adviser [of Israel] committed crimes, we have jurisdiction. We are also checking what he did because it has to be the South African Adviser who was involved in the Commission of Alleged Crimes under my jurisdiction. That is why I am trying to check what he did. - So that is not investigation either? - - No, we are collecting information to decide to open an investigation. - What is taking so long? This has already been put to you months and months and months ago. - - Because it is a very important decision. And I cannot decide without being absolutely sure and the report of the Palestinian Authority is still pending. So I have to wait for them. - So one doesn't expect you when you come in December with your report to New York… - - I will do it when I am ready - Open ended? - - Yes, it took us three years to open Central African Republic. Took two years to dismiss Venezuela mitigation so it depends. But the issue when we will decide it will go. - What about the Arab League has been anything further as far as communicating about this issue? - - The Arab League has been very supportive. We went to Cairo to review some documents and then they offer us not just that we can review documents in their own headquarters but also that they can send to us the member of the Committee to brief us. And we said yes then in few weeks the members of the Committee are coming. - What about this request by the Iraqis to request, that the Secretary General will request the Security Council to establish Tribunal alleging, without naming Syria, saying that there has been bombing on the 19th of August and they want an international investigation. Is this something that you think would fall under such a tribunal as War Crimes? Is this something you find any premise on not? - - Look, I am not the war prosecutor. I am the prosecutor of 110 States. - Is Iraq and Syria one of them? - - No. - Who is by the way? How does that work? - - I don't know, this is not my… I am the persecutor of the states who accept to be part of the treaty. - And obviously, neither Syria nor Iraq is part of the agreement? - - Not Lebanon, not Iraq, or Syria so they can decide whatever they want. - Ok. so this will not fall under your jurisdiction? - - No - If the Iraqis, for example, had been a party then they would have been able to refer the case to your office? - - Yes, yes. Both Iraq and Syria can do what the Palestinian did, accept jurisdiction without being member of the court. The Security Council would refer them to me. All this is possible. All this is legal. - What you have to do to accept jurisdiction without having to be the member? - - Just as the Palestinian say, make a commitment. - So if the Iraqi choose to take this up with you, what they need to do? - - They have to launch the declaration, accepting jurisdiction before the registry of the court. - Let me just move to Darfur. Do you feel sidelined by the Security Council? After all the world sort of stood with President Bashir rather than with you in the final analysis because there is no longer that enthusiasm at least not felt hear in the Security Council, not by the American administration behind you and supporting you vis-à-vis president Bashir. - - Look, my job is to collect evidence. I am still litigating before the court to confirm the genocide charges. And I think I will win these charges. In the meantime what I see is state parties are fully supporting [me]. Bashir was trying to fly to South Africa or Uganda, they said, “You are invited but when you come, you will be arrested.” In the Arab South American Summit, President Lula refused to sit close to Bashir. President Kirchner from Argentina left the room when Bashir was talking. So I don't see what you say. - But that was already months and months ago, and nothing has happened. The last time I did an interview with you, you told me all these things as accomplishment but then? - - This was most recently. Uganda was in July. Uganda was most recent, and South Africa just confirmed this. What I see that it is a process that takes time, the priority for me is to stop the crimes and also what is interesting, in the meantime the peace discussions are working so when people before they called issued decisions people were saying, oh they call, we block the peace negotiations. It is not true. The peace negotiations are in parallel. It is a parallel track. - Do you feel that the Obama administration has lived up to its word? Or once they came to power they backed down? - - It is their decision, it is their policy. I have nothing to say. - “It is their policy. I have nothing to say” Is that what you said? I smell disappointment, am I wrong? - - What I said is clear. I cannot make comments on this. - Do they undermine you? Were you counting on different kind of support? Coming from the Obama administration given their position before they came to power? - - I am a persecutor. I count on the evidence and the law. The rest for me is none of my business. I am not looking for votes. I am not a politician. I am not looking for votes so what you see… I cannot take into consideration those factors to make my decisions - Yes, but you need the Security Council members. - - The Security council refers the cases to me. The Security Council in June 2008 fully supports me. T - Right, but since then what happened? Do you have such a support? Do you feel that you have enough support from the Security Council now? - - African Union complains that I am not even listening when they are requesting to delay the case. I don't feel any legal problems. No one is saying my case is wrong. No one is saying that the evidence is wrong. I feel well respected. - Do you feel that some people have blamed you for being overly enthusiastic? And they sort of accused you of steering troubles? Do you feel that this has led you to taking it easy? - - They could say whatever they want. I had a responsibility to investigate crimes and I did it. The priorities now are the victims. The 2.5 million people in the camps suffering the decision to hinder the humanitarian assistance to them. That is a crime. And that is for me the total priority. - But you also issued a warrant arrest against president Bashir of Sudan. And that didn't happen, nobody is respecting that. - - Everyone is respecting that. One year before I requested the warrant against Bashir, I was saying publicly in the Security Council that I will investigate the person who was protecting Harun, the person who was instructing Harun. So I was very clear. - But then, to your knowledge since then, has there been any movement? Is anybody discussing anything? Harun is still free. You have warrant arrest against several people including the president. Has anybody budged internally? There were ideas that maybe on an internal level that would start a certain process, has there been such a process or no? - - I think that just the effort that the President Bashir is doing to travel to some state Party and to show that he can travel to some countries and be arrested, it is showing the impact of the court's decision. - Showing what? - - It is showing the impact of the court's decision. President Bashir is a Fugitive President. He is fighting for his freedom. His destiny is to face justice. The issue today is to stop the crimes against his victims. - But this “Fugitive President” as you called him is presiding over the group of 77. Am I not right? - - The country, Sudan, is presiding. President Bashir cannot travel, President Bashir cannot meet with presidents. - So you feel that this is the right track as far as to your reactions to your issuing the arrest warrant. - - Requesting the warrant was my duty and my responsibility. The right track? As long as there are victims of these crimes. It is no the right track but it is to stop the crimes. - How do you see things going from now on? Given the political situation, who is trying to say what. You know, the position of China or the United States or the Arab League, or the African leadership. The Head of African Union, Qaddafi his position towards you, and ICC. Given all of that, where do you see things going from here. - - I think it is very important now the Mbeki Committee, the Mbeki Panel. The report they will provide will be very important. And the responsibility to stop the crimes and arrest is the responsibility of the Sudanese government first. Second the African Union Security and Security Council of the Arab League, so they are those responsible. I just do the legal work. - African Union is clear in saying, in attacking not only your credibility but the credibility of the ICC together. Colonel Qaddafi made that very clear and he is heading the AU. - - I was in the headquarters of the African Union three days after the Libyan meeting. I met there with a panel head by President Mbeki. I normally work with Kofi Anan who is also representing African Union in Kenya. They represent political declarations but we are legal institutions. - No, my point is that he did. After the warrant arrest, he was able to go to all these summits. He was able to participate. You gave me few examples where he wasn't able, but there are several where he was hoping on the plane from one place to another. - - Yes, very well selected very well countries with no duty to arrest him, that's why he is a fugitive president trying to show that he is free and he is not free. That's why, I think, these travels for me shows desperation. - Do you feel that in the final analysis because of the language of politics in the final analysis that equation of what has to take a priority is it stability or justice? That most governments want stability even if it is at the expenses of justice? - - Ask people in the camps if there is stability in Darfur. For the victims, there is no stability. - But for the stability of Sudan? That is the equation now, it seems to me now that this is going to be…I don't know many people are saying right now that what has happened in Darfur case, in the Sudan case, in the position of governments vis-à-vis the ICC and the warrant arrest. They are saying ” Well finally, the issue of stability won over the issue of justice”. What do you say? - - But justice and stability come together. Justice provides stability. That is why what we requested is that the Sudanese government had to arrest President Bashir, no one else. So we never request military intervention, we request that the stable Sudanese government arrest president Bashir that is what will happen. - Finally the meeting you are attending in New York, Does it have a human rights focus? - - We are meeting here, different organs of the International Crime Court plus states, and international organizations, the regional courts, European Court of Human Rights, Inter American Court of Human Rights, the Commissions: African Commission, Americas Commissions, so all those who are doing international justice to learn about what the others are planning to do. To ensure support for each other, and ensure a better integration. - You mean all kinds of bodies from all kinds of tribunals. - - Yes - From Yugoslavia to Sierra Leone. - - Yes, including some persecutors, members of Hague Tribunals but also the regional court: The European Court of Human Rights, The Inter American Court of Human Rights, the African Commission for Human Rights, the Inter American commission, also regional courts. - And the tribunal on the assassination of President Hariri, they are also here? - - No they are not here. - Why is that? - - It is a national court - And you are talking only about regional - - Regional. Hariri is individual crime. - And you hope to do what? - - Each of us is presenting his own plans for the next years so we learn in two days what the others are trying to do, and then we learn how to combine efforts. - So the justice is upheld and not sacrificed at the alters of stability? - - Justice is here now. You cannot ignore it. So don't worry justice is here.
