Al-Hayat: You had a meeting with the foreign ministers of Syria and of Spain. What were you organizing? Foreign Minister: I was thinking you would say you had a meeting with Syria, Jordan, Lebanon. That's more important, I was thinking that you would be asking that question, because Turkey, Syria, Spain was on Mediterranean Union issue, but this is a historic step what we had, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan. Al-Hayat: Tell me why is that a historic meeting? Foreign Minister: Yeah, I will tell you. In June, during Turkish-Arab forum, at the margin of the Turkish-Arab forum, these four countries' Ministers of Foreign Affairs, we declared that these four countries will establish an economic zone of free visa and free trade. And, afterwards, we prepared the ground and today, we took certain decisions. One, these four countries will eliminate all visa requirements, in fact, eliminated already in this period. There will be free trade agreement with all the countries, we had it now, there is free trade among all, and in four sectors, trade, transportation, energy and tourism, these 4 countries will have meetings in the next two months, in December, we will review it, and in January, we will declare an economic zone between these four countries based on cooperation in trade, tourism, transportation and energy. So, for the first time in our region, there will be such a grouping based on the economic interdependency and we will develop certain projects to connect these four countries to each other. And this economic zone, area of cooperation, will be open to other friendly countries if they want to join in. Al-Hayat: Israel? Foreign Minister: I said friendly. There is no peace between Israel and Syria. Without peace, it will be difficult, but in the future. I meant especially Iraq, Saudi Arabia or other countries. Al-Hayat: What would be the conditions for Iraq, Saudi Arabia and others to come into this zone? Foreign Minister: If they want, they can come in, I mean, this is just a start. Al-Hayat: Let me stay with Lebanon a little bit. You said, I believe, in one of the meetings that security in Lebanon is at the heart of the security in the regional security. In order to have a zone-like thing, you would want to have security in all of the countries that you mentioned. Lebanon looks threatened. Lebanon at least is under the impression, people from Lebanon and people looking at Lebanon, they are so afraid and worried about the stability they feel it is “3ala kaf 3afrit”, meaning it is, you know, the expression, it can blow up anytime. Why did you emphasize that Lebanon security is at the heart of the region, and are you worried? What will you do about it in order to guarantee that it's not a Sunni/Shia rift? Foreign Minister: Not because of worry. Of course, we are worried regarding our region. What I meant by this is in Lebanon, it's like a small Middle East, with many communities, Christian, Sunni, Shia, Druze. Many of the communities who are in the Middle East, they are living in a country, in a small territory. In fact, Iraq has the same characteristic with a bigger territory. Of course, we don't have a strong Christian population in Iraq. In Lebanon, we have a strong Christian community. Therefore, the survival of Lebanon as a stable, prosperous state is a reflection, indicator of regional peace. Al-Hayat: Would that take, like some parties are demanding, the elimination or the cancellation of the Tribunal regarding the Hariri assassination? Foreign Minister: This vision, our vision regarding Lebanon or the character of Lebanon from the establishment of Lebanon until now in the region is of course beyond these conjectural issues. But the Tribunal is a legal issue, it should be kept as a legal issue, not as a political one. Of course, Rafik Hariri was a friend of Turkey, his son, Prime Minister Saad Hariri is also, we have excellent relations with all the groups in Lebanon, including Prime Minister Hariri, so there should be of course a study to find out who killed Rafik Hariri. Al-Hayat: By study, you mean Tribunal, the International Tribunal, or a local study? Foreign Minister: International. Now, we have an international Tribunal that is functioning, this is the reality, but from the very beginning after the assassination of PM Hariri, was a sabotage to the peace in Lebanon. So, we reacted to this, but in the same time, we didn't want deterioration of the relations among the Lebanese groups as well as between Lebanon and Syria or other regions. Al-Hayat: So, are you saying that better off without that Tribunal functioning now, better off without the indictments now in the name and for the sake of the security of Lebanon? Foreign Minister: No, justice is always important but it should be seen as an issue of justice, not as a political dispute. It should be a legal case, and within that framework. And it should not affect the domestic stability of Lebanon. It should be seen as individual responsibility not the responsibility of a community, a State. Al-Hayat: I understand you. Are you talking to parties in Lebanon, are you talking to Syria about that? Because Syria and Syria's allies in Lebanon seem to be pushing for the elimination, or cancellation, or breaking down of the Tribunal. And Syria is a friend of yours. Foreign Minister: Yes, Syria is a great friend of Turkey. As today, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, all the states, we were together. And, from the very beginning, Syrian authorities told us, there is no linkage between Syria and this assassination and we believed in the words of Syrian leadership. But I don't think that Syrians will be against finding the killer of Rafik Hariri, so I don't think this is a problem. Al-Hayat: And can you do anything to contribute to calming down this call from other quarters, such as Hezbollah or others, about the necessity to bring down this Tribunal? Otherwise, the country is in chaos, like you saw in the airport, in the last episode when Jamil Sayyed was brought back in the midst of top-rank security surrounding with Hezbollah. Foreign Minister: We have some contacts of course, but we are not involved directly in this issue, but through our contacts, we have close contacts with some of our friends in Lebanon, but of course, all these contacts, what they are telling is, we have to protect the stability of Lebanon. The government of Lebanon should be supported as a whole, because this government and even the presidency, you know how long it took to take Lebanon out of the crisis. Throughout all that process, Turkey, Turkish government, we have been very active in Lebanon to resolve these issues. Now, we should not go back and have a crisis in Lebanon. Al-Hayat: Do you discuss this with the Iranians? You are on good terms with the Iranians, because of the nuclear issue, which we will get to. But do you discuss the issue of Lebanon, in the sense that you just said, with the Iranians? Foreign Minister: Yes, even during the UN sanctions, we consulted about Lebanon. For us, the stability of Lebanon was so important that we have spoken with all the parties. That day, there was a potential crisis, as you know, in Lebanon. We tried not to have such a crisis, and we have spoken. Now, I cannot say anything. Al-Hayat: Yes, you can, because you oppose that vote. You personally oppose the Turkish position. You try to make sure that you don't go that far. Foreign Minister: Me, how do you know that? Al-Hayat: I know a lot. Foreign Minister: No, that's not the case. We have one consistent position, but in order to help the Lebanese government, we worked to get abstained, to be accepted by all the parties. I think you understood what I mean. Al-Hayat: Exactly. Al-Hayat: Did the deteriorating relationship between you, Turkey, and Israel hamper your role in mediating Syrian-Israeli track of negotiations? Foreign Minister: First of all, mediation itself is not objective. Mediation is a tool and an instrument. The objective is achieving peace. We mediated between Israel and Syria. Personally, I was the mediator, after Prime Minister (Tayyeb) Erdogan, Prime Minister (Ehud) Olmert, and President Bashar Al-Assad (agreed). We had several meetings, and we continued this in order to achieve a vision of peace. Then one party, in this case Israel, did not respect that vision, and attacked Gaza, when we were very close to making peace. After that, our relation has deteriorated. So we are following a policy of principles, and here it depends on Israel. If they come to the policy of peace again, we can have a role, but if they do not come to this position and if they continue to escalate the tension, then of course, there will be no meaning to continue such a mission of mediation. Al-Hayat: Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Moratinos - with whom I did an interview - left me to understand that their role as Spain, maybe other Europeans, was to fix the relationship between Turkey and Israel while Turkey would be the primary country playing the role between Syria and Israel in terms of regenerating or restarting the track. Foreign Minister: Yes, of course, I cannot say anything about the role of Miguel Moratinos, what he defined is his definition. But the Israeli side knows what we are expecting from them. Al-Hayat: So, is somebody mediating between you and Israel? Foreign Minister: No, no. That's not what I'm saying. There is no mediation between us and Israel and we don't need such a mediation. Why? Because we made it clear what we expect from Israel and they know what to do. Al-Hayat: When Miguel Moratinos says that, what does he mean? Foreign Minister: Of course, many friends want to contribute but it doesn't mean they are mediating and we don't need such a mediation. But all parties, like Miguel Moratinos, he's a very close friend of us and he's well known in the region, and he's a man of good intentions to help all the processes. He can do whatever he wants to contribute. But for us, we don't need a mediation, because we made our demands very clear. Al-Hayat: I also was very lucky to interview the president of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas, and he said about your relation with Israel that in the final analysis that is a transitory problem between you and Israel, and that, basically, you have your contacts go on, your agreements go on, your fundamental relationship is going on. So therefore he thinks that this is a transitory problem, and then, you will pretty much resume. Foreign Minister: It might be a transitional problem, it might be, but it might be a permanent problem. Why? For the first time our civilians were killed. Al-Hayat: At the flotilla, you mean? Foreign Minister: Yes, yes, therefore we will not forget that our citizens were killed by another army. This is a matter of principle for us, not transition, not tactical matters. This is a matter of principles for us. Al-Hayat: In all fairness, he didn't mean to insinuate that that was transitional in that sense. I want to make sure that I am clear. Foreign Minister: No, I know President Abbas, he speaks with good intentions, but whether it will be transitional or permanent, will be depending on the Israeli attitude. Al-Hayat: What are you demanding? Foreign Minister: A formal apology, because there's a crime. There's a crime. Al-Hayat: That's why you did not agree that there will be, at the Clinton Initiative, a pre-arranged meeting between both Turkish and Israeli Presidents? Foreign Minister: No, there was no pre-arranged appointment between our President and President Peres. There was no such meeting. Al-Hayat: You want a formal apology before the end of the Ban-Ki-Moon's Commission? Foreign Minister: Before or after. But if they want to improve our relations, they know what to do. Al-Hayat: So, you don't want, I mean, you will wait until the commission or until the apology, before you even resume your relationship? But you do have a relationship with Israel. Foreign Minister: Yes, we do have diplomatic relations but there is no official relations in the sense, there is no official contact now, our ambassador withdrew. No military cooperation. Al-Hayat: What sort cooperation is that? People say it's ongoing? What cooperation is it? Foreign Minister: There is no ongoing military cooperation. You should ask to them. There is no military cooperation at this moment. Our space is closed to Israel's military airplanes. Our ambassador is back to Ankara, we withdrew our ambassador and he is still in Ankara. These are some measures. Since 31st of May until now, there is no any official visit from Israel to Turkey, from Turkey to Israel. Al-Hayat: So, if there is no apology, there is no correction of the Turkish-Israeli relationship? Therefore there is no resumption of the Turkish role on the Syrian-Israeli negotiations, indirect. And it's all pending an apology, right? Am I understanding you? Foreign Minister: It depends on the Israelis' attitude. An apology is an indication of change in Israel's attitude. Therefore, it is important and so is compensation. There's a crime, 9 civilians were killed in international waters. Somebody must pay and be accountable for that crime. Al-Hayat: But if no such thing happens? Foreign Minister: It is up to them. We have been in this geography for thousands of years. Al-Hayat: Mr. Foreign Minister, I would love to talk to you about all kind of things including the doctrine people associate with you, but I am told to conclude the interview because you time is short. So, two questions quickly, one on Iran and one on secularism, and maybe I should start with secularism. Are you trying to overthrow secularism in Turkey? Foreign Minister: No, in Turkey there is a constitutional system and the rule of law. And, our party, our government is functioning in this constitutional system, within the principles of rule of law, and our constitution says that the Turkish Republish is democratic, social, secular, and republic of rule of law. So these are the principles and we are functioning within the principles. In Turkey, there is no question of regime at this moment. There is no discussion about that. There's a functioning democracy, a functioning rule of law, and this government is protecting, defending, developing, democracy in this context and if, when there is a spreading democracy, the system is being even more restored, and based on basic universal values. Al-Hayat: On Iran, what would it mean if Turkey, a neighbour of Iran, is going to comply with the Security Council resolution sanctions. What would that translate to in your bilateral relationship with Iran? Are your efforts ongoing in terms of trying to persuade Iran to work along with you and Brazil? Given the Iranian president's speech at the General Assembly after president Barak Obama extended a hand, and Ahmadinejad says “Excuse me, no, I'm going to tell you that you did 9/11”, how much difficulty does this put you in? Will you go on with your role and will you implement with the sanctions? Foreign Minister: First of all, Iran is our neighbour, and for centuries, there has not been any war, or any change of territories between Turkey and Iran. And we will continue to live in this geography for coming centuries, not years. All of us, Iran, Turkey, Arab countries, Lebanon, all of us. So what we are trying to achieve is, as I said in the beginning , a zone of peace, prosperity, stability in this region. This is our objective. In this region, there is no room for nuclear weapon, in this region, there is no room for sanctions, blockades, in this region, there is no room for blockade like in Gaza. In this region, there is no ethnic, sectarian violence. Al-Hayat: It's all there now! In this region, you now have all of the above. Foreign Minister: But we want to change this reality. In order to change this reality, we work very hard with the International community and with Iran to resolve the nuclear program, the nuclear issue, with peaceful means. Therefore, we worked and reached to an agreement. So that agreement was not a gesture to Iran or to anybody, but that agreement was an attempt to resolve this issue. We are very clear in Turkey, we are against nuclear weapons here or there. We want a nuclear free Middle East, including Israel or Iran, we want to solve these issues by diplomatic means. Coming to Security Council sanctions, since we worked hard. Why did we work? In order to prevent sanctions. Al-Hayat: But you will comply? Foreign Minister: Of course, we will comply. Although we said no, and still we are against sanctions in our region, there is a UN resolution based on Chapter 7 and we will comply, we will adapt ourselves. But we are not supposed to adopt unilateral sanctions by US, by EU, by Korea, by Japan, it cannot affect our bilateral relations. Al-Hayat: You mean the Europeans? Foreign Minister: Yes, of course. Al-Hayat: But you're not with the European Union. Foreign Minister: European Union has its own unilateral. Al-Hayat: But you're not part of that. Foreign Minister: No, no we will not, we are not obliged to implement unilateral sanctions. Within the framework of UN sanctions, we will develop our relations with Iran, as neighbours. Al-Hayat: Sorry, you have to explain that. What do you mean? Foreign Minister: Yes, we will develop economic ties with Iran based on these frameworks. We comply with the UN sanctions, but not with the unilateral sanctions. And we will continue to work in diplomatic scenes to find a diplomatic solution for this problem, in order to overcome, in order to eliminate all sanctions in our region. This is our region, therefore, even here in the UN, in last one week, we worked very hard. I personally had several meetings. Al-Hayat: In this last week? To do what? Foreign Minister: To meet with Iranian friends, with European P5 +1. In several meetings, we try to open the diplomatic channel again.
